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	<title>Comments on: GURT big mess</title>
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	<link>http://agro.biodiver.se/2009/09/gurt-big-mess/</link>
	<description>Crops, animals, wild relatives ...</description>
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		<title>By: Jeremy</title>
		<link>http://agro.biodiver.se/2009/09/gurt-big-mess/comment-page-1/#comment-812860</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeremy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Sep 2009 07:08:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://agro.biodiver.se/2009/09/gurt-big-mess/#comment-812860</guid>
		<description>Dear Joe

Actually, it does consider exactly the point you think it does not, in the paragraph that I am quoting below, for your convenience:

&lt;blockquote&gt;Opponents of GURTs seem to think that massive influxes of foreign pollen are the norm. They’re not. And I certainly wouldn’t want to accept, even as a gift, seed from someone who knew so little about farming and seed saving that they couldn’t even maintain their own varieties. Cross pollination from a different field is a fascinating and rare source of diversity in farmers’ fields, not the norm. GURTs pose absolutely no threat to farm-saved seed. In fact, I believe that they can enhance genetic diversity (by maintaining the separation between varieties), improve seed quality (for the same reasons) and have no impact at all on the livelihoods of poor farmers.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

In the wake of scares about pollen drift from GMOs there are actually scads of studies that &lt;b&gt;measure&lt;/b&gt; it in different ways and under different circumstances for different crops.

Some day I might feel like reviewing some of those, but in the meantime, please tell me where you get the idea that &quot;a great deal of ... seed&quot; could be affected by GURT-containing pollen.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear Joe</p>
<p>Actually, it does consider exactly the point you think it does not, in the paragraph that I am quoting below, for your convenience:</p>
<blockquote><p>Opponents of GURTs seem to think that massive influxes of foreign pollen are the norm. They’re not. And I certainly wouldn’t want to accept, even as a gift, seed from someone who knew so little about farming and seed saving that they couldn’t even maintain their own varieties. Cross pollination from a different field is a fascinating and rare source of diversity in farmers’ fields, not the norm. GURTs pose absolutely no threat to farm-saved seed. In fact, I believe that they can enhance genetic diversity (by maintaining the separation between varieties), improve seed quality (for the same reasons) and have no impact at all on the livelihoods of poor farmers.</p></blockquote>
<p>In the wake of scares about pollen drift from GMOs there are actually scads of studies that <b>measure</b> it in different ways and under different circumstances for different crops.</p>
<p>Some day I might feel like reviewing some of those, but in the meantime, please tell me where you get the idea that &#8220;a great deal of &#8230; seed&#8221; could be affected by GURT-containing pollen.</p>
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		<title>By: Anastasia</title>
		<link>http://agro.biodiver.se/2009/09/gurt-big-mess/comment-page-1/#comment-812837</link>
		<dc:creator>Anastasia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Sep 2009 04:24:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://agro.biodiver.se/2009/09/gurt-big-mess/#comment-812837</guid>
		<description>What crop are you speaking of? To my knowledge - feel free to correct me - the pollen of most crops falls close to the plant. Sure, some grains will travel into neighboring fields, but not &quot;a great deal&quot;, certainly not enough to &quot;make planting a nightmare&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What crop are you speaking of? To my knowledge &#8211; feel free to correct me &#8211; the pollen of most crops falls close to the plant. Sure, some grains will travel into neighboring fields, but not &#8220;a great deal&#8221;, certainly not enough to &#8220;make planting a nightmare&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Joe Jackson III</title>
		<link>http://agro.biodiver.se/2009/09/gurt-big-mess/comment-page-1/#comment-812745</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe Jackson III</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Sep 2009 17:56:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://agro.biodiver.se/2009/09/gurt-big-mess/#comment-812745</guid>
		<description>Your analysis does not consider that the GURT that drifts into the neighbor&#039;s seed stock means a great deal of his seed for the next year will not be viable, making planting a nightmare.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your analysis does not consider that the GURT that drifts into the neighbor&#8217;s seed stock means a great deal of his seed for the next year will not be viable, making planting a nightmare.</p>
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		<title>By: Evil Fruit Lord</title>
		<link>http://agro.biodiver.se/2009/09/gurt-big-mess/comment-page-1/#comment-812168</link>
		<dc:creator>Evil Fruit Lord</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Sep 2009 17:33:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://agro.biodiver.se/2009/09/gurt-big-mess/#comment-812168</guid>
		<description>No, no... Definitely not. Sorry if I implied that. Plant breeders get plenty of love over here. 

I&#039;d had a few conversations that week that had me steaming a little, and I was venting a little, I think.

No, my point was that I think a fair amount of the hostility towards GURTs stems from a general hostility towards plant IPR&#039;s. Compound that with the hostility towards transgenics that&#039;s out there as well, and you have a technology pretty much guaranteed to upset people. (I actually think a not insignificant chunk of the hostility towards transgenics also stems from the fact many people are uncomfortable with the idea of people owning it, but maybe that&#039;s a different conversation).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, no&#8230; Definitely not. Sorry if I implied that. Plant breeders get plenty of love over here. </p>
<p>I&#8217;d had a few conversations that week that had me steaming a little, and I was venting a little, I think.</p>
<p>No, my point was that I think a fair amount of the hostility towards GURTs stems from a general hostility towards plant IPR&#8217;s. Compound that with the hostility towards transgenics that&#8217;s out there as well, and you have a technology pretty much guaranteed to upset people. (I actually think a not insignificant chunk of the hostility towards transgenics also stems from the fact many people are uncomfortable with the idea of people owning it, but maybe that&#8217;s a different conversation).</p>
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		<title>By: Luigi</title>
		<link>http://agro.biodiver.se/2009/09/gurt-big-mess/comment-page-1/#comment-812165</link>
		<dc:creator>Luigi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Sep 2009 16:59:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://agro.biodiver.se/2009/09/gurt-big-mess/#comment-812165</guid>
		<description>Did you get an impression of hostility to IPRs on plants from reading our blog? From this post or others?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Did you get an impression of hostility to IPRs on plants from reading our blog? From this post or others?</p>
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		<title>By: Evil Fruit Lord</title>
		<link>http://agro.biodiver.se/2009/09/gurt-big-mess/comment-page-1/#comment-811581</link>
		<dc:creator>Evil Fruit Lord</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Sep 2009 03:11:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://agro.biodiver.se/2009/09/gurt-big-mess/#comment-811581</guid>
		<description>I have gotten more and more alarmed over the past few years at the level of hostility found among many well-educated, progressive people, to the very concept of intellectual property rights in plants (as in people owning rights to plant varieties, not plants themselves holding patents, which I&#039;m not sure I&#039;m cool with either). On some level I take this really personally, because it almost seems like its saying, basically, that what I do as a plant breeder has no real value. Why else would it be absolutely okay for everybody to share freely in the products of my labor?

These same people generally have no problem with the idea of patents for, say, car parts, or hard drives, or toaster ovens. But there&#039;s this idea that since nature invented strawberries, then I can take no credit for any variety of them I might generate (or &quot;discover&quot;, as one person pointedly informed me was the best I could do, as I could not actually create new strawberries myself).

Especially now that many of the public breeding programs have been essentially gutted, if not discontinued entirely, we&#039;re stuck with the same system which more or less works okay for, say, car parts, hard drives, and toaster ovens. That&#039;s capitalism, and while it has its faults, it&#039;s what we&#039;ve got, and if people want to pretend that it doesn&#039;t apply to plant breeding, pretty soon there won&#039;t be plant breeding, at least not to any serious, expensive extent.

Sorry, just felt like griping. I&#039;m biased, of course, but I kind of feel like plant breeders don&#039;t get their due in our society...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have gotten more and more alarmed over the past few years at the level of hostility found among many well-educated, progressive people, to the very concept of intellectual property rights in plants (as in people owning rights to plant varieties, not plants themselves holding patents, which I&#8217;m not sure I&#8217;m cool with either). On some level I take this really personally, because it almost seems like its saying, basically, that what I do as a plant breeder has no real value. Why else would it be absolutely okay for everybody to share freely in the products of my labor?</p>
<p>These same people generally have no problem with the idea of patents for, say, car parts, or hard drives, or toaster ovens. But there&#8217;s this idea that since nature invented strawberries, then I can take no credit for any variety of them I might generate (or &#8220;discover&#8221;, as one person pointedly informed me was the best I could do, as I could not actually create new strawberries myself).</p>
<p>Especially now that many of the public breeding programs have been essentially gutted, if not discontinued entirely, we&#8217;re stuck with the same system which more or less works okay for, say, car parts, hard drives, and toaster ovens. That&#8217;s capitalism, and while it has its faults, it&#8217;s what we&#8217;ve got, and if people want to pretend that it doesn&#8217;t apply to plant breeding, pretty soon there won&#8217;t be plant breeding, at least not to any serious, expensive extent.</p>
<p>Sorry, just felt like griping. I&#8217;m biased, of course, but I kind of feel like plant breeders don&#8217;t get their due in our society&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Karl Haro von Mogel</title>
		<link>http://agro.biodiver.se/2009/09/gurt-big-mess/comment-page-1/#comment-811474</link>
		<dc:creator>Karl Haro von Mogel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Sep 2009 22:06:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://agro.biodiver.se/2009/09/gurt-big-mess/#comment-811474</guid>
		<description>I wanted to weigh in on some interesting contradictions with regard to GURTs as well. If it is bad to have a built-in biological requirement that forces farmers to continually purchase seeds for a crop year after year, when traditionally they were able to save and regrow, it leads to some interesting &lt;em&gt;necessary&lt;/em&gt; conclusions.

Therefore anyone opposing transgenic GURTS &lt;em&gt;must also&lt;/em&gt; oppose seedless watermelons derived through polyploidy. By the very nature of triploid watermelons, which are generated artificially from induced tertraploids crossed with diploids, you cannot save seeds from them... because they are seedless. If someone made a transgenic seedless watermelon, it would be the same sort of thing. So when it is derived through one method it is perfectly ok, but another method and it is evil?

Another interesting contradiction that I note is that anti-GE proponents often say that transgenic crops are risky because they can cross-pollinate and contaminate other people&#039;s seeds. As Jeremy points out, then they should be in favor of GURTs because they would for the most part prevent this from happening. The demand for near-100% separation is encouraging the development of GURTs to solve this &#039;problem.&#039;

Finally, there is a really bizarre notion going around. That GURTs would spread around the world and kill of traditional varieties. This goes against the basic biology involved. If it produces infertile seeds, it cannot spread.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wanted to weigh in on some interesting contradictions with regard to GURTs as well. If it is bad to have a built-in biological requirement that forces farmers to continually purchase seeds for a crop year after year, when traditionally they were able to save and regrow, it leads to some interesting <em>necessary</em> conclusions.</p>
<p>Therefore anyone opposing transgenic GURTS <em>must also</em> oppose seedless watermelons derived through polyploidy. By the very nature of triploid watermelons, which are generated artificially from induced tertraploids crossed with diploids, you cannot save seeds from them&#8230; because they are seedless. If someone made a transgenic seedless watermelon, it would be the same sort of thing. So when it is derived through one method it is perfectly ok, but another method and it is evil?</p>
<p>Another interesting contradiction that I note is that anti-GE proponents often say that transgenic crops are risky because they can cross-pollinate and contaminate other people&#8217;s seeds. As Jeremy points out, then they should be in favor of GURTs because they would for the most part prevent this from happening. The demand for near-100% separation is encouraging the development of GURTs to solve this &#8216;problem.&#8217;</p>
<p>Finally, there is a really bizarre notion going around. That GURTs would spread around the world and kill of traditional varieties. This goes against the basic biology involved. If it produces infertile seeds, it cannot spread.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeremy</title>
		<link>http://agro.biodiver.se/2009/09/gurt-big-mess/comment-page-1/#comment-811437</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeremy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Sep 2009 07:10:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://agro.biodiver.se/2009/09/gurt-big-mess/#comment-811437</guid>
		<description>Thanks Kevin, and of course you are absolutely right. But seriously, do you think that&#039;s what they mean, but forgot to write? 

I find it hard to believe that anyone who fights for and understands small farmers on the margins of society would think that they might be a target for the companies that would like to sell seeds containing GURTs. Maybe, I suppose, but really, how much of a market would those farmers represent?

Anyway, if you&#039;re right, and I start seeing provisos like that, I promise I&#039;ll consider thinking about supporting them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Kevin, and of course you are absolutely right. But seriously, do you think that&#8217;s what they mean, but forgot to write? </p>
<p>I find it hard to believe that anyone who fights for and understands small farmers on the margins of society would think that they might be a target for the companies that would like to sell seeds containing GURTs. Maybe, I suppose, but really, how much of a market would those farmers represent?</p>
<p>Anyway, if you&#8217;re right, and I start seeing provisos like that, I promise I&#8217;ll consider thinking about supporting them.</p>
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		<title>By: Cary</title>
		<link>http://agro.biodiver.se/2009/09/gurt-big-mess/comment-page-1/#comment-811405</link>
		<dc:creator>Cary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Sep 2009 21:38:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://agro.biodiver.se/2009/09/gurt-big-mess/#comment-811405</guid>
		<description>Recently, and out of desperation, I have had to fall back on a quote from Alan Greenspan: &quot;I guess I should warn you, if I turn out to be particularly clear, you&#039;ve probably misunderstood what I&#039;ve said.&quot; Why is it that this happens so frequently in association with the topic of this post?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Recently, and out of desperation, I have had to fall back on a quote from Alan Greenspan: &#8220;I guess I should warn you, if I turn out to be particularly clear, you&#8217;ve probably misunderstood what I&#8217;ve said.&#8221; Why is it that this happens so frequently in association with the topic of this post?</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin</title>
		<link>http://agro.biodiver.se/2009/09/gurt-big-mess/comment-page-1/#comment-811398</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Sep 2009 19:36:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://agro.biodiver.se/2009/09/gurt-big-mess/#comment-811398</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t think you would have needed to write this post if the authors of the piece you quote had appended the proviso &quot;...if the farmers had abandoned their traditional varieties in favour of  the GURT usupers.&quot; 

Unfortunately, it seems that public perception of GURTs (as evidenced by Terminator technologies) damns them as the worst sort of GMOs because they smuggle in a seemingly malign dependence on the &quot;big bad guys&quot;. Contentious stuff, but it&#039;s difficult to put down conspiracy theories in this domain.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think you would have needed to write this post if the authors of the piece you quote had appended the proviso &#8220;&#8230;if the farmers had abandoned their traditional varieties in favour of  the GURT usupers.&#8221; </p>
<p>Unfortunately, it seems that public perception of GURTs (as evidenced by Terminator technologies) damns them as the worst sort of GMOs because they smuggle in a seemingly malign dependence on the &#8220;big bad guys&#8221;. Contentious stuff, but it&#8217;s difficult to put down conspiracy theories in this domain.</p>
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