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	<title>Comments on: Lost apples found</title>
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	<link>http://agro.biodiver.se/2009/11/lost-apples-found/</link>
	<description>Crops, animals, wild relatives ...</description>
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		<title>By: Marty Berbach</title>
		<link>http://agro.biodiver.se/2009/11/lost-apples-found/comment-page-1/#comment-817444</link>
		<dc:creator>Marty Berbach</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Nov 2009 18:17:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://agro.biodiver.se/?p=9113#comment-817444</guid>
		<description>Kanin - I read a summary of your article.  I recall a visit to Fort Ross State Park, Californa, about 11 years ago.  The park ranger claimed that they still had a few of the original apple trees planted there in the 1830&#039;s by Russian traders.  I believed him, as the trees looked very knarly but had a few small apples on them.  I recommend looking into it.

Marty</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kanin &#8211; I read a summary of your article.  I recall a visit to Fort Ross State Park, Californa, about 11 years ago.  The park ranger claimed that they still had a few of the original apple trees planted there in the 1830&#8242;s by Russian traders.  I believed him, as the trees looked very knarly but had a few small apples on them.  I recommend looking into it.</p>
<p>Marty</p>
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		<title>By: Kanin</title>
		<link>http://agro.biodiver.se/2009/11/lost-apples-found/comment-page-1/#comment-817389</link>
		<dc:creator>Kanin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Nov 2009 04:33:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://agro.biodiver.se/?p=9113#comment-817389</guid>
		<description>To add my two cents worth:

One, the apple is certainly more than the sum of its genes, and is arguably more than the sum of its cultivars. In the analogy of genes as building blocks in the architecture of the [domesticated] apple, (a product of purposeful and environmental selection over centuries resulting in a broad spectrum of varieties filling numerous specific, and often overlapping niches in farmstead and household usage), then conserving “old” apple cultivars ex situ accomplishes little more than “saving” ‘building blocks’ for future use. And to this ends, the wild apple forests of the Tien Shan (also faced with perils of habitat loss and fragmentation associated with urban expansion around Almaty, Kazakhstan) hold much greater diversity than abandoned farmstead orchards. In short, the historical and social context is as much a part of the apple as the genes themselves.

Second, the evolution of the apple does need to continue, especially in a changing climate. However, the tragedy of losing thousands of named progeny of the ‘Johnny Appleseed” era of seedling orchards is due in part to the historical context in which these trees originated but also because the extraordinary circumstances under which this diversity proliferated is unlikely to be recreated in the foreseeable future. Literally millions of seedling trees planted in orchards throughout America were winnowed down to select individuals with desirable characteristics worthy of naming and propagating. Our narrow perception of the apple as a desert fruit may also limit re-diversification.

I guess for me, the old cultivars hold historical significance but also have meaning beyond seedling trees because they were found to be valuable in the past. Rediscovering cultivars in abandoned orchards, experiencing their unique flavors, and speculating on their past utility contribute to the allure to these fruits…</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To add my two cents worth:</p>
<p>One, the apple is certainly more than the sum of its genes, and is arguably more than the sum of its cultivars. In the analogy of genes as building blocks in the architecture of the [domesticated] apple, (a product of purposeful and environmental selection over centuries resulting in a broad spectrum of varieties filling numerous specific, and often overlapping niches in farmstead and household usage), then conserving “old” apple cultivars ex situ accomplishes little more than “saving” ‘building blocks’ for future use. And to this ends, the wild apple forests of the Tien Shan (also faced with perils of habitat loss and fragmentation associated with urban expansion around Almaty, Kazakhstan) hold much greater diversity than abandoned farmstead orchards. In short, the historical and social context is as much a part of the apple as the genes themselves.</p>
<p>Second, the evolution of the apple does need to continue, especially in a changing climate. However, the tragedy of losing thousands of named progeny of the ‘Johnny Appleseed” era of seedling orchards is due in part to the historical context in which these trees originated but also because the extraordinary circumstances under which this diversity proliferated is unlikely to be recreated in the foreseeable future. Literally millions of seedling trees planted in orchards throughout America were winnowed down to select individuals with desirable characteristics worthy of naming and propagating. Our narrow perception of the apple as a desert fruit may also limit re-diversification.</p>
<p>I guess for me, the old cultivars hold historical significance but also have meaning beyond seedling trees because they were found to be valuable in the past. Rediscovering cultivars in abandoned orchards, experiencing their unique flavors, and speculating on their past utility contribute to the allure to these fruits…</p>
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		<title>By: Jacob</title>
		<link>http://agro.biodiver.se/2009/11/lost-apples-found/comment-page-1/#comment-817345</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Nov 2009 16:49:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://agro.biodiver.se/?p=9113#comment-817345</guid>
		<description>The reference I read was about Africa. Someone is looking up the paper for me...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The reference I read was about Africa. Someone is looking up the paper for me&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Luigi</title>
		<link>http://agro.biodiver.se/2009/11/lost-apples-found/comment-page-1/#comment-817335</link>
		<dc:creator>Luigi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Nov 2009 13:01:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://agro.biodiver.se/?p=9113#comment-817335</guid>
		<description>And soon we&#039;ll be able to &lt;a href=&quot;http://arstechnica.com/science/news/2009/11/complete-genomics-produces-a-cheapwell-5000human-genome.ars&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;sequence them all&lt;/a&gt; for next to nothing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And soon we&#8217;ll be able to <a href="http://arstechnica.com/science/news/2009/11/complete-genomics-produces-a-cheapwell-5000human-genome.ars" rel="nofollow">sequence them all</a> for next to nothing.</p>
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		<title>By: Luigi</title>
		<link>http://agro.biodiver.se/2009/11/lost-apples-found/comment-page-1/#comment-817316</link>
		<dc:creator>Luigi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Nov 2009 10:03:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://agro.biodiver.se/?p=9113#comment-817316</guid>
		<description>Yes, I guess it comes down to this: do we spend money keeping every genetic combination that has ever arisen (and will arise) and been loved by someone for these vegetatively propagated crops, or take a punt that it will be more valuable generating new ones?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, I guess it comes down to this: do we spend money keeping every genetic combination that has ever arisen (and will arise) and been loved by someone for these vegetatively propagated crops, or take a punt that it will be more valuable generating new ones?</p>
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		<title>By: Luigi</title>
		<link>http://agro.biodiver.se/2009/11/lost-apples-found/comment-page-1/#comment-817315</link>
		<dc:creator>Luigi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Nov 2009 09:56:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://agro.biodiver.se/?p=9113#comment-817315</guid>
		<description>I know there are some abandoned stations in the South Pacific, for example, on which one can still find important germplasm of various fruit trees.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I know there are some abandoned stations in the South Pacific, for example, on which one can still find important germplasm of various fruit trees.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeremy</title>
		<link>http://agro.biodiver.se/2009/11/lost-apples-found/comment-page-1/#comment-817305</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeremy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Nov 2009 07:52:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://agro.biodiver.se/?p=9113#comment-817305</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m at least partially with Robert on this. People with space and time should be encouraged to take a flyer on new genetic combinations. This would certainly be easier anywhere outside the EU, where policy is dead against anyone doing anything of the sort, at least, if they hope to share anything they develop.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m at least partially with Robert on this. People with space and time should be encouraged to take a flyer on new genetic combinations. This would certainly be easier anywhere outside the EU, where policy is dead against anyone doing anything of the sort, at least, if they hope to share anything they develop.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert</title>
		<link>http://agro.biodiver.se/2009/11/lost-apples-found/comment-page-1/#comment-817302</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Nov 2009 04:33:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://agro.biodiver.se/?p=9113#comment-817302</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;The value of the old varieties lies in the combination of genes that defines the varieties, and in the link with history and culture that others have cited. 

Amen to that, and a major theme in Andean potatoes (and other crops) as well. For that reason they are vegetatively propagated in genebanks -- at much more cost and effort then storing the &#039;genes&#039; as seed; which would be sufficient for the &quot;long term conservation of genetic diversity for breeding perspective&quot;).

But what about (also) making new history? In the small US town where I live people pride themselves for the various fruit trees in their yards. I think many could be persuaded to take chances and plant something new. And it should not be hard to get  &quot;community farms&quot; on board too. 

And not just with old varieties, but also from seed from from old and introduced (Kazachstani!) apple stock. Innovation does not preclude conservation, but I get more excited about new Johnny Appleseeds then about more curation. The sheer number of apple varieties that were produced in perhaps 200 years speaks for the tremendous opportunities to develop more. Or not? It did -perhaps- not take that long to develop thousands of varieties, but  in those days almost everybody with a plot of land (and the right climate) would have planted some apple trees -- not to mention the cider producers. A pretty big plant breeding project.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>The value of the old varieties lies in the combination of genes that defines the varieties, and in the link with history and culture that others have cited. </p>
<p>Amen to that, and a major theme in Andean potatoes (and other crops) as well. For that reason they are vegetatively propagated in genebanks &#8212; at much more cost and effort then storing the &#8216;genes&#8217; as seed; which would be sufficient for the &#8220;long term conservation of genetic diversity for breeding perspective&#8221;).</p>
<p>But what about (also) making new history? In the small US town where I live people pride themselves for the various fruit trees in their yards. I think many could be persuaded to take chances and plant something new. And it should not be hard to get  &#8220;community farms&#8221; on board too. </p>
<p>And not just with old varieties, but also from seed from from old and introduced (Kazachstani!) apple stock. Innovation does not preclude conservation, but I get more excited about new Johnny Appleseeds then about more curation. The sheer number of apple varieties that were produced in perhaps 200 years speaks for the tremendous opportunities to develop more. Or not? It did -perhaps- not take that long to develop thousands of varieties, but  in those days almost everybody with a plot of land (and the right climate) would have planted some apple trees &#8212; not to mention the cider producers. A pretty big plant breeding project.</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: Cary</title>
		<link>http://agro.biodiver.se/2009/11/lost-apples-found/comment-page-1/#comment-817262</link>
		<dc:creator>Cary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Nov 2009 19:00:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://agro.biodiver.se/?p=9113#comment-817262</guid>
		<description>As I have tried to explain in my published writing on the topic, I believe the missing apple varieties are &quot;functionally extinct.&quot; Absolutely, some probably still exist in old homesteads and gardens. I was able positively to identify one - the Magnum Bonum - apple myself, the last three individuals being found on the edge of a small commercial orchard (with good records) in Virginia. Leigh Calhoun (Calhoun Nursery, Pittsboro, North Carolina, USA) has found a few others. Mostly, however, I fear that the varieties I referred to are both functionally and literally extinct. 

If a variety still exists and yet we don&#039;t know where it is or what it is, frankly its utility is limited and its future as a distinct variety is very very dark. I would like to think we could find and identify more of these varieties, but I don&#039;t think there are many herbarium samples of the old varieties, and I see no effort to search these and compare them to existing unidentified varieties. (Such an effort would be complicated, expensive and labor intensive - where&#039;s the interest in undertaking such a thing?)

Time is running out. Varieties grown in the 19th century (the data source cited above) and early 20th century wouldn&#039;t typically have lasted this long without skilled human intervention. How often do people graft and conserve unidentified varieties to keep them going? Not often. So, the situation is dire, no matter how you look at it. 

The value of the old varieties lies not just in the genes (this might only be minimal, who knows?), but in the combination of genes that defines the varieties, and in the link with history and culture that others have cited. The story is a tragedy. On the positive side, finding and rescuing the old varieties gives hope. We should be celebrating efforts to conserve this cultural and crop diversity, much of it undertaken by amateurs, those who truly love the fruit.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As I have tried to explain in my published writing on the topic, I believe the missing apple varieties are &#8220;functionally extinct.&#8221; Absolutely, some probably still exist in old homesteads and gardens. I was able positively to identify one &#8211; the Magnum Bonum &#8211; apple myself, the last three individuals being found on the edge of a small commercial orchard (with good records) in Virginia. Leigh Calhoun (Calhoun Nursery, Pittsboro, North Carolina, USA) has found a few others. Mostly, however, I fear that the varieties I referred to are both functionally and literally extinct. </p>
<p>If a variety still exists and yet we don&#8217;t know where it is or what it is, frankly its utility is limited and its future as a distinct variety is very very dark. I would like to think we could find and identify more of these varieties, but I don&#8217;t think there are many herbarium samples of the old varieties, and I see no effort to search these and compare them to existing unidentified varieties. (Such an effort would be complicated, expensive and labor intensive &#8211; where&#8217;s the interest in undertaking such a thing?)</p>
<p>Time is running out. Varieties grown in the 19th century (the data source cited above) and early 20th century wouldn&#8217;t typically have lasted this long without skilled human intervention. How often do people graft and conserve unidentified varieties to keep them going? Not often. So, the situation is dire, no matter how you look at it. </p>
<p>The value of the old varieties lies not just in the genes (this might only be minimal, who knows?), but in the combination of genes that defines the varieties, and in the link with history and culture that others have cited. The story is a tragedy. On the positive side, finding and rescuing the old varieties gives hope. We should be celebrating efforts to conserve this cultural and crop diversity, much of it undertaken by amateurs, those who truly love the fruit.</p>
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		<title>By: Penny</title>
		<link>http://agro.biodiver.se/2009/11/lost-apples-found/comment-page-1/#comment-817218</link>
		<dc:creator>Penny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Nov 2009 21:29:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://agro.biodiver.se/?p=9113#comment-817218</guid>
		<description>This is the best news I&#039;ve read all week.  I grew up in apple country with stories filled with the names of many of those lost apples - and of applejack (that stuff will knock your socks off if it&#039;s done right; the trick as I heard it was to leave it to overwinter in an oak barrel outside and draw out only the liquid amber core after the water freezes to the sides of the barrel and just before snow melt).   The decline in available varieties is the story of just about every crop that has gone commercial in the world.  To all those who are working to recover &#039;lost&#039; crop cultivars throughout the world - a big thank you goes out.  The return of a robust diversity of food plants and varieties to our farms and our tables is truly something to celebrate.  Recovering the food plants of a place goes hand in hand with recovering the heart and soul of a people.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is the best news I&#8217;ve read all week.  I grew up in apple country with stories filled with the names of many of those lost apples &#8211; and of applejack (that stuff will knock your socks off if it&#8217;s done right; the trick as I heard it was to leave it to overwinter in an oak barrel outside and draw out only the liquid amber core after the water freezes to the sides of the barrel and just before snow melt).   The decline in available varieties is the story of just about every crop that has gone commercial in the world.  To all those who are working to recover &#8216;lost&#8217; crop cultivars throughout the world &#8211; a big thank you goes out.  The return of a robust diversity of food plants and varieties to our farms and our tables is truly something to celebrate.  Recovering the food plants of a place goes hand in hand with recovering the heart and soul of a people.</p>
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